(Back on the record at 10:48 a.m.)

Q So do you remember the two that you sold to Mr. Mishkoff, or the approximate two? Do you remember any of them that you actually did sell?

A One of them was a woman who owned a fax service company in Chicago. That's the only one I remember. I think there was one other.

Q How would she have located you?

A I don't remember.

Q Did you advertise?

A No, I did not. I think she was a friend of someone who was working for one of my clients. I think one of my -- a guy who worked for one of my clients, when I told him about this, he may have said, hey, you should contact -- whatever her name is -- she might be interested.

Q Okay. And then you don't remember the other one?

A No, I don't.

Q I think you mentioned this early on, but just to confirm, you've never taken formal classes in computer skills, you know, computer website design or any of this stuff, or have you?

A I don't believe you did ask me that.

Q I thought you said you had never had any formal classes since then. But go ahead and tell me.

A I'm sorry. I don't remember that question.

Q When you went through your education, I thought you said that. But anyway, have you ever had any formal classes in computer --

A I took -- when I was at Cornell, I was in the engineering school, and I think one of those classes -- I wasn't there for very long. I think one of those classes was a computer-related class, possibly FORTRAN. But you're going back a long time. I just don't remember.

A When I was -- the only other computer class -- at one point I thought I was going to get a Masters degree in Computer Science, which I didn't. And because I had no undergraduate computer classes, I had to take a prerequisite, and I took a course in an obscure language called PL1 just because I had to take that if I wanted to go get a Masters. And I did take that course in PL1, but I never went and got the Masters. And I don't think I've taken -- I can think of no other computer classes that I've taken.

Q Okay. When did you move to your current address? Did you say fifteen years ago or so?

A Yeah. It may have been '85. Somewhere between '84 and '86. So around fifteen years ago or a little more.

Q Do you subscribe to any newspapers?

A No, I do not.

Q What newspapers do you typically read?

A I occasionally read the Dallas Morning News, and I occasionally read the Dallas Observer.

Q In what way do you get your news?


Q On TV or online?

A Good question. Mostly on TV.

Q Do you subscribe to any local magazines?

A Local magazines?

Q By "local," I mean things that promote local -- I don't mean "Time" or "Newsweek" kind of things. I mean stuff that's local.

A I don't believe so.

Q When did you first hear about The Taubman Company? What is the first memory you ever have of either Taubman or The Taubman Company?

A I would think it was the announcement of the -- of Taubman's plan to build the shopping mall in Plano. I don't believe I had ever heard of Taubman before then.

Q And how did you hear about that plan?

A I don't remember. I assume I read it -- about it in the newspaper, but I do not remember.

Q What do you remember about it that had significance to you?

A I remember that I was very excited because it was a major shopping mall going in just a few miles from my home.

Q Did you, prior to that, have no shopping malls there?

A Not that close.

Q How close is this to your home?

A I think it's three miles.

Q The shopping mall is in Plano; is that correct?

A That's correct.

Q And that's the neighboring town to your town?

A That's correct.

Q Okay. At that time, were you involved in a relationship with the same girlfriend that you're in a relationship with now?

A That's correct.

Q And that's Donna Hartley?

A Right.

Q I understand -- am I correct in understanding she's from Michigan?

A That's correct.

Q Did you have conversations with Ms. Hartley, ever, beginning then or at any time, about her know about Mr. Taubman or The Taubman Company?

A Probably. My recollection is that when I discovered they were a Michigan company, I asked her if she was familiar with them, and she was not.

Q Is Hartley her last name growing up?

A Yes.

Q Did you indicate -- not on the record today -- but is she from Franklin, Michigan?

A That's one of the places she lived. That's -- when she's asked where she's from, that's what she says. I think that's where she lived just for a few years before she left Michigan.

Q And did you just indicate -- I'm sorry -- I sort of got distracted -- but that when you first talked to her, she did not know who he was? Is that what you said?

A That's correct.

Q Did you know who he was at that time?

A No, I did not.

Q So the sum and substance of your interest was because you were getting a shopping mall?

A That's correct.

Q Did you do any investigation to learn what kind of shopping mall you were getting?

A It's -- I don't remember the specifics, but I believe I looked -- I searched the internet to see what I could learn about it. I don't remember.

Q Approximately when was this that you heard that, that there would be a mall coming?

A I think was May of '99. I'm not certain of that. It may have been a little before. It was probably whenever the press release went out. I assume it would have been picked up that day or the next day by the local newspapers. I really don't -- I'd say early 1999.

Q When you heard about it, did you hear about it as a mall with a name, or did you just hear about it as a concept, there will be a new mall?

A I don't remember.

Q When did you first get the website -- I mean the domain name for the mall? I think it was shopsatwillowbend.com.

A Right. I believe that was in May of 1999. But without my records in front of me, I'm not certain.

Q Can you put that temporally in context? Did you get that domain name within days, hours, months, weeks, whatever, of learning about the mall?

A I would say days or weeks.

Q Did you only get that domain name at that time, or did you get others?

A That's the only one. Related to the mall you mean? I mean, I don't know if I -- you know, any of the other domain names I have, I don't know when I registered them. But relating to this issue, that's the only domain name I registered at that time.

Q And what was the purpose of getting that domain name?

A I wanted to build a website about the mall.

Q And why was that?

A Because I was excited about the mall, and I thought it would be fun to do.

Q So did you?

A Build a website?

Q Yeah.

A Yes, I did.

Q And when did you first build the website?

A I'm not sure, and I've been trying to figure that out. And that's just -- I can't find any way to accurately determine that. I don't know when I first put that website on line.

Q Did you ever talk with anybody about your intention -- before you got the web -- the domain name, did you ever talk with anybody about your intention to get the domain name?

A Not that I remember.

Q Did you ever talk with Ms. Hartley about it?

A I don't specifically recall doing that, but it's quite possible that I did.

Q Did you talk with Ms. Hartley when you got the website?

A I can't -- I know that -- I really don't remember. Since I typically talk to Donna about everything I'm doing, I feel that I must have discussed it with her. I don't -- it wasn't anything that was significant enough for me to remember any specific conversation. I can't tell you when we discussed it or how we discussed it. It was -- but I feel certain we must have discussed it.

Q Do you two live together?

A No, we do not.

Q And you don't remember talking to her specifically about Mr. Taubman in connection with the website or the domain name?

A No, I do not at all. That seems unlikely that we would have discussed Mr. Taubman. I'm sure that I asked her if she was familiar with the company, and she wasn't.

Q And you said that at the time that you first heard about all of this, you also did not have a familiarity with Mr. Taubman or The Taubman Company?

A I had never heard of either of them.

Q Did you have any information either then or did you come by it soon thereafter to learn he was from Michigan?

A Well, I knew that the company was in Michigan. I'm not sure that I really knew -- when you say, "Mr. Taubman," who are we talking about here?

Q Well, there are a few, but I'm talking about the head of The Taubman Company?

A Which is whom.

Q A. Alfred Taubman. But I guess I'm more interested in who you were thinking of rather than who I'm thinking of. At the time who did you affiliate the web -- the mall with?

A With neither of them. I didn't know that there was even a Mr. Taubman associated with the company. I mean, at some point -- at some point I learned that -- I think his name is Robert Taubman, who is the CEO. And it wasn't until -- just putting these in sequence, it wasn't until well after that, that I even learned of the existence of Alfred -- Al Taubman. At some point I did -- when the mall opened, I was there for the opening ceremonies, and I think Robert Taubman was there. I was certainly aware of him at that time. I don't know that I was at all familiar with Al Taubman, if that's what you're asking me, in connection with the mall.

Q Do you remember specifically where you heard about the first plans to build the mall?

A As I said, I don't. I assume I read about it in the Dallas Morning News, but that's a guess. I don't know where else I would have heard about it. That's my main source of local news.

Q How long approximately after that did it take to get the mall up and running? Do you know?

A No, I don't.

Q When you refer to the mall -- the opening ceremonies, was that an invitation-only event?

A No, it was not.

Q Hello?

A No, it was not an invitation-only event. It was a public event.

Q You completely faded out then. I didn't hear anything?

A Okay. Was a public event. It was not an invitation-only event.

Q How did you know about it? How did you hear about it?

A I don't remember. I'm assuming it was through the newspapers.

Q Can you describe the opening ceremony day?

A There was a ribbon-cutting ceremony and a few speeches.

Q Is that where Robert Taubman spoke?

A Yes, he did.

Q Did anybody else speak that you remember?

A Other people spoke, but I do not remember who they were.

Q Did you attend that with anybody?

A No, I did not.

Q Was it during the day or night?

A It was in the morning, I believe.

Q So at some time from the day that you learned about the mall was going to open until the day that you came up with your website, I'm assuming during that period of time you went about creating the website, correct? Did you -- let me strike that. Did you create the website that ultimately became associated with the domain name www.shopsatwillowbend.com?

A Yes, I did.

Q You designed everything in there?

A That's correct.

Q And so during the period from when you first got the domain name registration to the time the website went up and running, what were you doing in connection with that website?

A I was collecting information about it.

Q Can you explain what you had to do to collect information?

A I don't remember. I believe I was searching on the web, and I went to the -- I remember going through the construction trailer to get information from them.

Q What kind of information can you get from the construction trailer?

A They had information about the mall. They had brochures. It's been a while, and I don't remember specifically. But they had things that they handed out about the mall, I assume to attract tenants.

Q So you got a brochure or whatever they had?

A I remember at least one, and I may have gotten more than one, because I remember going to the trailer several times.

Q Did you only pick up printed material, or did you actually talk with the people?

A I remember speaking with people, but possibly just to, you know, ask them where the brochures were. I don't remember having any conversations -- any substantive conversations about the mall.

Q What did the construction trailer look like? Did it look all muddy like a construction trailer, or did it look like a marketing booth or some kind of a place where they would entertain interested tenants?

A I don't know how to answer that. It was a trailer, and it had some kind of sign out in front of it. And I don't remember what the sign said, something about the mall. I mean, it was the only -- it was the only place in the construction site that appeared to be open to the public.

Q Okay. When you purchased the domain name -- again, you told me that you secured domain names through VeriSign or Network Solutions?

A Right.

Q How did you pay for that?

A Either by check or credit card. I'm not sure. They used to -- they've changed their procedures over the years. It used to be almost exclusively by check. Now it is exclusively by credit card. I don't remember.

Q Do you remember who was the registrant? Was it WebFeats, or was it Hank Mishkoff?

A I don't remember.

Q Is that the kind of expenditure of money that you would consider a kind of business expense that you would right off as a business expense or categorize somehow separately in your books?

A Probably not.

Q Do you keep books for your business expenses?

A I keep records. I don't categorize them until I, you know, pay my taxes.

Q So you got the domain registration probably in May of '99. Is that probably a fair guess?

A That's a fair guess.

Q Did you tell me -- or maybe I forgot -- how long it took between that time when you first heard about the mall is coming, you got the domain registration, approximately how long until you saw activity at the site? Do you remember that?

A I don't remember.

Q But at some point, there was activity, and you went and you got brochures or whatever printed material that they had?

A That's correct. That's correct, and I literally have no recollection of the timing of that.

Q Okay. And did you create a website at that time?

A I don't remember when I created the website. I created the website, I guess as soon as I felt like I had enough information to -- with which to create a website. But I don't remember exactly when I created it.

Q Was the mall in existence yet when you first made your website --

A Well, it certainly wasn't open. I don't know what you mean. Had they --

Q Well, was it three dimensional, or was it just like dirt and the ground? Was there construction that you could see?

A I'm thinking it was just dirt on the ground. That's a good question, because one of the ideas -- you just jogged my memory. One of the ideas I had, which I never implemented -- was that I wanted to take construction pictures and put them up on the site, sort of the story of the development of the mall. And I just never had time to do that. But if I had that thought, then I'm guessing that the mall -- that they had not started building the mall when I first had the site.

Q So when you're -- is there like a date that you can -- is the time that you create the website so that you put it up on the internet, is that like a date that exists? All of a sudden one day it's up?

A I have not been able to find that date.

Q But there is such a time? You may not know it, but you have to do something physically to turn it on so to speak?

A That's correct.

Q Okay. And you don't know when that date is?

A That's correct.

Q But the date that it did come up and running was before the mall's opening ceremony?

A Absolutely.

Q Approximately how much before?

A I don't know.

Q Do you know when the mall opened?

A No, I don't.

Q Did it open in the year 2000 or 2001?

A I'm not sure.

Q I think it was actually -- I think it was -- I'm not sure either, actually. Hold on a second. Okay?

A Sure.

MR. LEVY: Can we go off the record?


(Off the record at 11:11 a.m.)

Part 4