(Back on the record at 1:04 p.m.)
MS. GREENBERG: I'm looking at what I faxed over there as Exhibit 2. Is it something you could give to the witness or first give it to the court reporter to mark, and it will be Exhibit -- what are we on -- 4?
MR. LEVY: 4.
MS. GREENBERG: Did I already mark this?
MR. REZNICEK: No.
MS. GREENBERG: It's the WebFeats. We haven't marked this?
MR. LEVY: It has not yet been marked.
MS. GREENBERG: Okay.
(Exhibit 4 marked.)
Q Mr. Mishkoff, can you look at -- this is a printout that I made from visiting the WebFeats site. Does this look like it's all stuff from the WebFeats site?
A You want me to leaf through it?
Q Yeah, please.
A At a glance, this appears to be from my site and dated yesterday and today.
Q Okay. I won't represent that it's complete because I didn't even attempt to do that. I just wanted to have some printout and have you verify that these are printouts from your site.
A They certainly appear to be.
Q They're not?
A No. They absolutely appear to be from my site.
Q Okay. And then looking at the top -- the top page in this stack, which is a printed page I realize, my top page has a word, a logo, "WebFeats" in like a rectangular design box around it?
Q Is that the home page?
A Yes, it is.
Q Okay. And the first thing underneath the word "WebFeats" -- I mean the logo, says, "Website Development Services"?
Q Is that a promotion for your consulting or web design, or whatever, services?
A That's a link to -- you know, I haven't looked at it in so long. I believe it's a link to the page -- the third page in your exhibit, which says, "The Internet Means Business."
Q "Ten reasons why you should let WebFeats help your business establish a presence on the internet and the worldwide web"?
A I believe that that first link on the WebFeats home page, the Website Development Services link, I believe that goes to that business page. I'm not a hundred percent certain, but I believe that that's true.
Q And then the second -- these are all links?
A These are all links.
Q Okay. And all the way to the box it says, "The Taubman Company sued me," I'm assuming -- oh, that was a link, too. So they're all links. Everything here is underlined, and they're all links?
A Yeah. There are some words that are not links, but they are parts of phrases that are links.
A I mean, the purpose of every little grouping that you see here is a link.
Q Okay. And "The Taubman Company sued me," that box right there, that's a link to what?
A No. Just the "Read all about it" as I recall. I don't believe there's anything that's actually live as a link except that one phrase, "Read all about it."
Q What does that do?
A That currently goes to the giffordkrasssucks website.
Q And what about, "hundreds of fabrics, thousands of styles www.shirtbiz.com," what is that?
A That's a link. At least the URL portion of that, I believe is a link to my girlfriend's site. Well, somewhere in there there's a link to my girlfriend's site. That's definite. And I believe the link is www.shirtbiz.com.
Q And do you refer people to this website to look at your work?
A To the WebFeats website?
A Yes, I do. I refer occasionally -- yeah. The short answer is yes. I'm comfortable with that. I refer people to this to look at my work. Let's just say yes.
Q That's not the primary way that you show people your work?
A It is the primary way I show people my work. It's not the primary reason I tell people to go to my home page. I tell people to go to my home page because -- for instance, for example, if they want to visit my site about my vacation to Poland, I could give them the whole URL to my Poland website, but it's much easier to say, go to my home page and look for the link.
A So one of the reasons that I suggest that people go to this page, I suppose, is to show them my work, but that's probably not the primary reason.
Q Okay. So going through the rest of this printout, there's a bunch of pages, samples of our work, click on the second link under the logo of the home page.
Q This is where you would go?
Q And it will have links within there, right?
Q An online catalog and other things. And another article -- another link, Dallas/Fort Worth Internet Service Providers.
Q Then on here -- oh, yeah, that's the third one. So now I'm getting in touch with how I got them in this order.
A Right, the first three links.
Q All I really want is to verify that that's what this is, it's from your website. And another ad, when you click on the Dallas/Fort Worth Internet Service Providers there it is again, the ad for shirtbiz.com?
A There is the link to shirtbiz.com.
Q And then -- what is this printout SLIP/PPP?
A Oh, you're going to get the technical stuff that you don't want to know.
Q Well, I just want to --
A This is a listing of -- although it's not up to date -- when I maintained it regularly, which I did for five-and-a-half years, it was a listing of all of the internet service providers in Dallas and Fort Worth, comparing their services in copious detail. And that's -- SLIP and PPP accounts is what you would call a dial-up account.
Q As opposed to cable and stuff?
A As opposed to cable or DSL or ISDN, which I do also list further down on the page, as you will see. But I never -- yeah, I don't list cable and satellite and other things. I no longer actively maintain this page, but it's still on line.
Q So this was a comparison sheet -- well, it still is a comparison sheet.
A Yes, but it's outdated.
Q Right, an outdated comparison sheet so you can do an apples-to-apples for other people who provide comparable service to you?
A No. I don't provide internet access. These are internet service providers. I'm a web developer.
Q So why is it on here? I mean, what's the importance of this stuff to anybody?
A It's incredibly important for people who are looking for dial-up accounts and want to know what's available rather than having to call all these people and ask them all these questions, which I know from personal experience, can take days or weeks. They can just look at my site and find out which -- narrow it down to a few that look good for them and call them.
Q Okay. So what this is is everybody who would want a website --
A No. This has not nothing to do with the web.
Q Hold on. You're just saying once they want to have a way to get on the web from their computer, all you're providing them with is information that they need to access the internet, which is just a complement -- "complement" with an e in there -- to whatever they may want from you? I mean, is that right? This is not really anything to do with the service that you provide?
A This does not help me in any way. This is just like my Willow Bend Mall site. This is a free service that I provide to my community.
Q I think the last page is still that so we don't have anything in addition. The address that's at the very last page of all of this -- I don't have my notes from the very beginning. So that's your original address?
A That's the WebFeats mailroom address, yes. That's the same one I gave you earlier.
Q Are you familiar with a man named Ronald Riley?
Q What do you know about him?
A We have spoken once. He left me a voice mail message once, and we've exchanged half a dozen to a dozen E-mails.
Q What was the subject matter of the E-mails?
A About this situation, about you suing me.
Q What are you talking about with him?
A Most of the -- well, the notes that we exchanged before he called me were typical with -- to other notes that I've received from a lot of people, just basically talking about what evil people you are.
Q I'm taking that meaning me?
A Well, you know, you can take that however you want to.
Q Well, last time I'm sure you expressly included me. So I'll keep that in there.
A And then he asked for my phone number, and when I sent that to him via E-mail, he called me. And for about the next hour and a half, he suggested all kinds of things that I could do. Not so much suggestions of things I could do, but he told me what he had done in similar situations. And he was an advocate of doing things, you know, much more drastic than I'm prepared to do. And he just made all kinds of suggestions that I should fight you much harder than I am.
Q So he was the first one to make the contact? He contacted you?
Q How did he come to know about you?
A That's a good question. And I don't know.
Q Was the first contact E-mail or a call?
A The first contact was E-mail.
Q Pardon me?
A Uh-huh, yes.
Q Was that through one of the "sucks" sites?
A There's no way for me to tell how he found out about me, unless it's in one of his E-mails, which I don't have in front of me. He may have said, you know, I found out about you through the "sucks" site. But then the question is how did he find out about the "sucks" site, and I don't know.
Q What's your understanding of his professional background?
A He says he's an inventor.
Q Did you ever talk about what he invented?
A He may have mentioned it. I wasn't paying a whole lot of attention toward the end of the conversation.
Q What kind of means did he advocate or did he express that he had advocated to other people?
A I don't remember specifically, but he described to me cases where businesses had given him a hard time about his inventions, big companies. And I don't remember what that involves, giving him a hard time. But basically, that when he felt that someone was treating him unfairly because they were a big business and felt that they could, that he took dramatic action to the point of basically trying to get them fired and told me some of his successes about whole management teams that he had had fired, that he basically felt that the best defense is a good offense.
Q So you talked to him through E-mail several times before you talked on the telephone?
A My recollection is that we exchanged a few E-mails, but I know there was at least one E-mail. It may have been his first E-mail that asked me for my phone number. I don't know that for a fact. There may have been a couple of them before that, but I'm not sure.
Q How many phone calls? Just one?
A One phone call where we spoke and one voice mail message that he left me.
Q Did he tell you that he had spoken to me?
A No. He did not.
MR. LEVY: Let me just say, it's our view that you're getting into an area which may not be admissible at trial, but which is plainly discoverable. So discovery can go forward and you can ask all the questions you want --
MS. GREENBERG: Right.
MR. LEVY: I think -- well, I don't know what was going on there. Why don't you ask your questions. I can speculate to you what was going on there.
Q When you talked to him, I'm assuming it covered some span of time. Do you recall if it was after you had received an injunction or two injunctions or before? Can you put that in a time frame for me?
A Well, the -- no. I really can't. I was going to say -- no, I'm not even going to speculate. No, I really don't know.
Q Do you remember why you talked to him -- when you talked to him by telephone so, you know, in real time --
Q -- that you discussed the fact that you had to dismantle or turn off your "sucks" sites?
A Well, if I -- if the conversation happened after that second injunction, I'm sure it would have come up, but he would have known it. I mean, he's very computer literate. I mean, more than I am. He knows his way around the web. I would not have had to tell him that.
Q Did you talk to him about the fact that you were waiting to hear whether the court was going to enjoin you, or did you talk about the fact that you had been enjoined?
A I don't remember. I mostly listened.
Q Did he discuss with you his plan to set up his own website?
A No, he did not.
Q Have you seen his website?
A Yes, I have.
Q Have you communicated with him since then?
A No. The last communication between us was an E-mail that he sent me, and I don't know that it was specifically to me. It may have been to many people, but including me, notifying me that that website was on line. That's the last communication of any kind I've had with him.
Q Getting back to -- I can't remember your answer because that was right around the time we had a little side track with Paul Levy. But do you know anything about the conversation I had with him?
A My recollection -- I thought that -- hang on one second. I have to switch tapes.
(Witness switches his tape.)
A My recollection of his voice mail message is that he told me that he had spoken with Mr. Gifford, but I could be completely wrong. But I do remember him, in his voice mail message, saying he had spoken with someone at your firm. I don't remember it being you.
Q Probably -- if it was a he, it was Alan Krass, but he didn't mention my conversation with him?
A If he did, I don't remember. I remember him -- the name Gifford sticks in my mind. I don't know if he was just referring to your firm generically by that name.
Q Maybe he was just confused as to who owns that name.
A Maybe. I don't know.
Q I don't think he spoke to Mr. Gifford. But, you know, he could have spoken to him, too. I think he spoke to Mr. Krass.
A That could be.
Q So when was the last time you E-mailed -- or received or sent an E-mail back or forth from Ronald Riley?
A The last E-mail I received from him was when he notified me, and I think other people, that the taubman-sucks.com site was on line. That's the last communication of any kind there has been between us.
Q So you didn't call him or talk to him since this?
A No. I have had one phone conversation with him, the one I described. That's it.
Q How come you didn't want to talk to him after you saw that website?
A I didn't need to talk to him. Once was enough.
Q Gotcha. Okay. I don't think I have anymore questions.
(The time is 1:23 p.m.)
MR. LEVY: I have one follow up because I think there may be some lack of clarity in the record. You asked when was the last time that Mr. Mishkoff sent or received an E-mail from, or to, Mr. Riley and he responded, of course, I think logically in response to that question that the last E-mail communication between them had been a reception of the one that he described.
MS. GREENBERG: Right.
EXAMINATION BY MR. LEVY:
Q What was the last time that you sent an E-mail to Mr. Riley?
A I don't remember. We exchanged E-mails before his phone call. We may have exchanged E-mails after his phone call.
Q Do you remember whether there was an E-mail that you sent him after you received a voice mail message from him?
A Yes, I did.
Q And what did you tell him in the E-mail message?
A That although I knew that he meant well, going and -- I assumed that he meant well -- going and talking to the folks at Gifford about the case, that I'd rather he not do that anymore, and at any rate, I wouldn't discuss that situation with anyone but my lawyer. And that's the last -- I believe that's the last E-mail that I sent to him.
MS. GREENBERG: Do we have an approximate date on that? Sorry to barge in.
THE WITNESS: If you say you spoke with him, I would assume it was shortly after that. It may have been that night. I just don't know.
MR. LEVY: I'm sorry. I've completed my cross-examination.
(The time is 1:25 p.m)
EXAMINATION BY MS. GREENBERG:
Q Have you ever talked with anybody else about setting up any other "sucks" sites in regard to this dispute or the parties involved in this dispute? About other sites that are in existence, to our knowledge, that haven't been, so far, part of the dispute.
A I'm not sure I understand your question. I think the answer is no, but can you ask me that again?
Q Have you discussed with anybody else, or made plans in any way, to make or create or turn on or design, or whatever, other "sucks" sites that are not currently part of the lawsuit? And, you know, when I say, "part of the lawsuit," I mean, any of these "sucks" sites that we already know about and that's the ones that are named. And then there's the giffordkrassgrohsprinkle site, which isn't really part of anything other than we're aware of it, are there any other "sucks" site in the works?
A I have no "sucks" sites in the works or plans, and I hope never to have to create any ever again, ever.
Q And do you know if anybody else does?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q Okay. Okay. I don't have anymore questions. I appreciate your time.
MR. LEVY: Can we go off the record?
MS. GREENBERG: Yeah.
(End of proceedings at 1:26 p.m.)